Conversation yesterday about the use of firearms for self defense.
I pointed to the three recent incidents.
1--> 11 year old girl who shot a man who was stabbing her mother (ending the attack by the man)
2--> The business owner who shot a man who had beheaded one person and was in the process of attempting a second beheading.
3--> Victorian Police who shot an killed the guy who attacked them in the car park of the police station.
My observation was that being armed in all those situation clearly saved the lives of innocent people.
In two cases non police acted to save other civilians.
Everyone agreed that the outcomes where good ones and where glad that the person who initiated the violence was stopped before they did all the damage that they had set out to do (ie kill one or more innocent people)
HERE is where things got SILLY:
I said, if you can see the value of having a firearm for self defense in these situations, what is your reason for objecting to allowing people to have firearms at home or in the work place for just this sort of event?
Two people then proceeded to say the following:
well if the bad guys bring knives and you have a hand gun,
the next time the bad guys will bring hand guns
so you will need a rifle,
and the next time the bad guys will bring rifles
so you will need a machine gun,
and the next time the bad guys will bring machine guns
so you will need a rocket launcher.........
Being armed will just result in an "arms race" between civilians and criminals
I politely asked what if any evidence they might have for this interesting "escalation" theory.
ANSWER: AMERICA
In their day to day lives these guys are not Sub 70 IQ people.
We are talking lawyer, engineer & school teacher, so we can safely say they are at or above average IQ.
RESPONSE: Is that why we have seen heavy machine gun fire and rocket attacks on businesses and homes in the USA? I was wondering how it had got to that..........
JUST another reminder of the lack of evidence based thought that is holding up the "guns are bad you should not have them" position.
Monday, 29 September 2014
Tuesday, 9 September 2014
Don't let this be a "Gun Law" Issue. Life in Australian Agriculture can both delight and destroy people.
I posted this comment a in response to a discussion prompted by this tragic event:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/four-dead-man-missing-at-nsw-property/story-fn3dxiwe-1227053294735?nk=51833b2fc0ffeab4b3023e4f08d22244
The situation that has occurred is a domestic murder & suicide of a farmer and his family. It is a tragic event that requires a full thorough investigation by police to understand exactly what has lead to this event.
Despite the press reports suggesting that this has come out of the blue and as a total shock to the local community, the sort of action does not just spontaneously occur with out cause.
The investigation, will no doubt uncover a series of events and circumstances which has lead a man to determine that he should take the lives of his kids and wife along with his own.
There will no doubt, in hindsight been a number of points along that course where the intervention of authorities or friends or others might (I say might) have prevented some or all of these deaths.
As an aside I say might have prevented some of these deaths, because it is beyond knowing if any one person or group of people would have been able to prevent this. Murder and Suicide are not easy things to understand or prevent, so please don't hear me saying "if only the community had done more it would have stopped this".
What I wanted to sound a warning about was the immediate focus on the fact that a firearm was used.
We need to be very wary of any solution that has its focus the firearms regulations.
I say this for many reasons, amongst them are:
1. Domestic Murder/Suicides are committed with unacceptable frequency using a variety of methods.(we have seen stabbings, drownings, fire & firearms)
2. That frequency is still very low as a proportion of all murders (which is itself quite a small number already and in decline) and suicides.
3. The mental state of the person at the time of committing this type of crime will be very unlikely to be the the mental state they have been in during the whole of their life. In particular it is unlikely in the extreme that they will have had murderous intent when they applied for their Motor Vehicle, Boat, Firearms, explosives or 1080 permit or other license.
4. It already a legal requirement for a number of professions to communicate with the Police about the mental condition /deterioration of that condition of patients if they believe that the person owns or has access to firearms.
5. It is already quite straight forward to have action taken to have a persons firearms removed from them. Police and Family Members can both.
6. We have seen in the case so recently promoted by "Gun Control Australia" that the very strict waiting period and training requirements and probationary period around NSW Pistol License where not a sufficient hindrance to an already mentally ill person with a determination and plan to kill her father. In hindsight we see that murder was planned well before she joined the pistol club.
7. We have strong evidence that people intent on using a firearm to commit murder have no qualms about obtaining the weapon illegally, through theft or black market purchase. (see SA case of Christopher Robert Mieglich)
8. It is a classic "Gun Control Australia/Gunsense" tactic to take situation like that above and make it about the firearms ownership and licensing laws.
This is a gross & disingenuous misdirect the public & policy makers seeking to prevent them evaluating what is a complex problem. The GCA type want to push a "simple view/fix" on problem that is often a complex long running interplay of financial/family dynamics/family law/alcohol/drugs/mental health & other factors.
That is were I finished my original post, so here is a post script
There is no law or regulation that can be written that will put an end to murder or suicide.
There is no law or regulation that can be written that will prevent people finding themselves in situation which to them are so hopeless that they come to believe that murder or suicide is the only viable answer.
This story I believe will be revealed as a tragedy of the land, borne of years of drought, of the stress of working a farm and caring for wife injured in a serious car accident and more that we have little knowledge of.
We must not let the fools in "Gun Control Australia" turn Australia's mind away from the real issues facing Aussie Farmers in GCA & coys pushing of their own agenda.
Tighter regulations on LAFO's wont fix or prevent this situation.
Neither will LAFO's letting GCA types turn it into a "Gun Law" issue.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/four-dead-man-missing-at-nsw-property/story-fn3dxiwe-1227053294735?nk=51833b2fc0ffeab4b3023e4f08d22244
The situation that has occurred is a domestic murder & suicide of a farmer and his family. It is a tragic event that requires a full thorough investigation by police to understand exactly what has lead to this event.
Despite the press reports suggesting that this has come out of the blue and as a total shock to the local community, the sort of action does not just spontaneously occur with out cause.
The investigation, will no doubt uncover a series of events and circumstances which has lead a man to determine that he should take the lives of his kids and wife along with his own.
There will no doubt, in hindsight been a number of points along that course where the intervention of authorities or friends or others might (I say might) have prevented some or all of these deaths.
As an aside I say might have prevented some of these deaths, because it is beyond knowing if any one person or group of people would have been able to prevent this. Murder and Suicide are not easy things to understand or prevent, so please don't hear me saying "if only the community had done more it would have stopped this".
What I wanted to sound a warning about was the immediate focus on the fact that a firearm was used.
We need to be very wary of any solution that has its focus the firearms regulations.
I say this for many reasons, amongst them are:
1. Domestic Murder/Suicides are committed with unacceptable frequency using a variety of methods.(we have seen stabbings, drownings, fire & firearms)
2. That frequency is still very low as a proportion of all murders (which is itself quite a small number already and in decline) and suicides.
3. The mental state of the person at the time of committing this type of crime will be very unlikely to be the the mental state they have been in during the whole of their life. In particular it is unlikely in the extreme that they will have had murderous intent when they applied for their Motor Vehicle, Boat, Firearms, explosives or 1080 permit or other license.
4. It already a legal requirement for a number of professions to communicate with the Police about the mental condition /deterioration of that condition of patients if they believe that the person owns or has access to firearms.
5. It is already quite straight forward to have action taken to have a persons firearms removed from them. Police and Family Members can both.
6. We have seen in the case so recently promoted by "Gun Control Australia" that the very strict waiting period and training requirements and probationary period around NSW Pistol License where not a sufficient hindrance to an already mentally ill person with a determination and plan to kill her father. In hindsight we see that murder was planned well before she joined the pistol club.
7. We have strong evidence that people intent on using a firearm to commit murder have no qualms about obtaining the weapon illegally, through theft or black market purchase. (see SA case of Christopher Robert Mieglich)
8. It is a classic "Gun Control Australia/Gunsense" tactic to take situation like that above and make it about the firearms ownership and licensing laws.
This is a gross & disingenuous misdirect the public & policy makers seeking to prevent them evaluating what is a complex problem. The GCA type want to push a "simple view/fix" on problem that is often a complex long running interplay of financial/family dynamics/family law/alcohol/drugs/mental health & other factors.
That is were I finished my original post, so here is a post script
There is no law or regulation that can be written that will put an end to murder or suicide.
There is no law or regulation that can be written that will prevent people finding themselves in situation which to them are so hopeless that they come to believe that murder or suicide is the only viable answer.
This story I believe will be revealed as a tragedy of the land, borne of years of drought, of the stress of working a farm and caring for wife injured in a serious car accident and more that we have little knowledge of.
We must not let the fools in "Gun Control Australia" turn Australia's mind away from the real issues facing Aussie Farmers in GCA & coys pushing of their own agenda.
Tighter regulations on LAFO's wont fix or prevent this situation.
Neither will LAFO's letting GCA types turn it into a "Gun Law" issue.
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